Affordable Access to Justice: Legal Coaching with Mat Canzer | DFS 291

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:00

Record. All right. I'm Jennifer Takagi with

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:04

destined for success. And today's one of my favorite days

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is pot of Palooza Day. And I'm here with Matt. Matt is one of

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the amazing people who agreed to come on the show, share his

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genius, and he's an attorney, which we all need a little legal

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:20

in our life. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt Canzer: 00:00:23

Thanks so much happy to be here. Let's hope we

Matt Canzer: 00:00:26

don't all need some legal in our lives.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:28

We didn't know how to use it to our advantage.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:31

So where are you? And how do you show up in the world?

Matt Canzer: 00:00:34

That's true. That's true. I'm physically located in

Matt Canzer: 00:00:37

Kelowna BC in Canada on the West Coast. I do run a an entirely

Matt Canzer: 00:00:42

virtual law practice. And I focus on litigation coaching for

Matt Canzer: 00:00:46

people in companies that are representing themselves.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:50

Okay, so, you know, that's one of those

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things, they say you shouldn't represent yourself, but that's

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:55

probably in a criminal case. But in other cases, like, how can I

Jennifer Takagi: 00:00:59

represent myself?

Matt Canzer: 00:01:02

Yeah, great question. You know, it's one of

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these situations where if you can avoid representing yourself,

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most people would prefer that the economics of the legal

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profession is just that legal services, they're just not

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always accessible. And there's a large and growing segment of the

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population, that they have a legal problem that comes up,

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maybe it's a small claims case, maybe they're going through a

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divorce, could be a Tribunal hearing. And it just doesn't

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make sense to pay for full service representation. So they

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often don't have a choice but to represent themselves. And that's

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when they reach out to lawyers like me to guide them on the

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process, help them figure out which forms to fill out, do a

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couple of strategy sessions and and help them move forward with

Matt Canzer: 00:01:46

confidence. Well,

Jennifer Takagi: 00:01:48

I love that you said that I had a situation in

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my previous career. And I don't know how many phone calls I made

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seen if an attorney would even meet with me to take my case.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:02:00

And it ended up being an equal opportunity violation case. And

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there was not an attorney that would take me and one attorney

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just laughed at me and said, Well, if you want to waste your

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money, oh, boy, yeah. And in the end, I ended up hiring a

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mediator, it was the best thing ever all turned out well. But

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sometimes it can be hard to find an attorney. And if I had had

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somebody in my corner to guide me through the process, that

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would have been really good for me, as it is. I paid the money

Jennifer Takagi: 00:02:31

and it was worth every dime. Yeah, services are expensive,

Jennifer Takagi: 00:02:35

because they're worth

Matt Canzer: 00:02:36

it. Yeah, no, no, I have no doubt. And honestly,

Matt Canzer: 00:02:39

stories like that are kind of what brought me into this type

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of work. I was a litigator for about 13 years before, before I

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pivoted into litigation coaching. And I would meet

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clients in situations like yours, almost, you know, every

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day. And they would say, Listen, I have this issue. This is my

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budget, this is what I can reasonably afford on legal

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advice. I certainly didn't laugh at anyone, or I hope I made

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everyone feel respected. But you know, the unfortunate bad news

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that I had to share was, this is how much it's gonna cost if you

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want me to do this kind of work for you. And inevitably, the

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question came, I can't afford that. I'm gonna have to do this

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myself. Can you point me in the right direction? Can you look

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over my shoulder? Can you answer a couple of questions? And and

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traditional law firms are not well set up to handle those

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kinds of services. And that's what brought me to a virtual

Matt Canzer: 00:03:32

platform. That's what brought me to litigation coaching.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:03:36

I love that. So what are a couple of things that

Jennifer Takagi: 00:03:39

I might need to know or look for? Or our clients come to you

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for on this on the situation and litigation? And is litigation is

Jennifer Takagi: 00:03:49

prevalent in Canada as it is in the US? And do you work across

Jennifer Takagi: 00:03:52

borders? I'm gonna say that was like five questions in one.

Matt Canzer: 00:03:56

No, no, I appreciate it. I'm ready for

Matt Canzer: 00:03:58

compound questions. I'm licensed to practice in British Columbia

Matt Canzer: 00:04:01

now. So that's the only jurisdiction that I can offer

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services in. I do have plans to expand I launched launched

Matt Canzer: 00:04:08

butterfly legal not too long ago. It was really only about

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six months ago. So I'm still building my business. And I do

Matt Canzer: 00:04:15

have plans to expand across the country and one day into the

Matt Canzer: 00:04:19

into the US market. Absolutely. What do you know, maybe some

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tips for people who are thinking about about self representing

Matt Canzer: 00:04:27

the number one thing that I encourage potential clients to

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think about is whether they have the emotional capacity and the

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time to engage in the work because lawsuits they're really

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not. They're not quick. They do take time, you will have to be

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able to you know, dedicate a couple of hours maybe on the

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weekend or after work to work on this. So do you have the

Matt Canzer: 00:04:51

capacity to do this for yourself? The second tip is to

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make sure that your support network is set up around you

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right to make sure that that you have people that you can you can

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confide in that you can talk about lawsuits, they're

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incredibly emotionally taxing. If it wasn't a stressful

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situation, you wouldn't be in court. So, so be ready for that.

Matt Canzer: 00:05:13

And then the third thing is just to be organized, it's I can't

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tell you how much anxiety melts away, when you know where your

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information is, you know, what your next date is, you have some

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understanding of what to expect. So yeah, you know, if, if that

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sounds like an option for some people, they're looking for a

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cost effective way to do things themselves, but they do want

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some professional guidance to, to walk them through it and

Matt Canzer: 00:05:43

offer some advice. That's, that's the service I offer.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:05:46

I love that. So with you not being actually the

Jennifer Takagi: 00:05:51

attorney of record representing me, you're just giving me

Jennifer Takagi: 00:05:54

guidance? Does that mean that your coaching program you can

Jennifer Takagi: 00:05:58

cross borders? Are you still just operating mostly in Canada?

Jennifer Takagi: 00:06:02

Or do you have a desire? Whichever way?

Matt Canzer: 00:06:05

Yeah, great question. The way our law

Matt Canzer: 00:06:07

license works is that we can only practice in the

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jurisdiction in which we're licensed. So even though I'm not

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Counsel of record, just giving the advice, reviewing records,

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providing an opinion, even coaching sessions, that would be

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the practice of law. So for now, I am in DC only. But I do have

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plans to expand to the other the other Canadian jurisdictions,

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and to the US. Part of that is also that that the law does

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change in some of these areas. So it's important for any lawyer

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that that a client's working with is, you know, to make sure

Matt Canzer: 00:06:37

that they they've got a good understanding of the law in the

Matt Canzer: 00:06:40

jurisdiction where the problem arose? Well,

Jennifer Takagi: 00:06:42

yeah, because everybody's a little bit

Jennifer Takagi: 00:06:44

different. I haven't looked this up lately, I'm in the great

Jennifer Takagi: 00:06:48

state of Oklahoma in the US. And I haven't looked it up lately.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:06:54

But we did have a law on the books, it was illegal to carry a

Jennifer Takagi: 00:06:57

pair of pliers in your car, and the rear on your person. And the

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:02

reason was for cattle rustling like you would cut the fences

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:05

and steal all their cows. So I don't know if that's still on

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:08

the books. But if you ever come to Oklahoma, we'll have to look

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:11

that up and make sure I don't have any fliers in the car so

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:14

that you're not being league illegally.

Matt Canzer: 00:07:19

Absolutely, you know what, every jurisdiction,

Matt Canzer: 00:07:21

they've got at least a couple of those weird laws on the books

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kind of thing. And there's always law school classes that

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find them and say, you know, Professor, why is this illegal?

Matt Canzer: 00:07:30

And we're like, cuz no politicians figured out how to

Matt Canzer: 00:07:33

get it off the books yet.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:36

Yeah, I worked for the federal government for

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many years that I and people would say, why are we doing it

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:41

this way, and I am like a dog with a bone, I have to get in

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:45

there and research it and find it. And sometimes it was a

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:48

little hard and took a while. But there really isn't

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legitimate reason for everything. The problem is, over

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time, we may not know what that legitimate reason is, and it may

Jennifer Takagi: 00:07:58

not be easily accessible. So we just assume it's stupid.

Matt Canzer: 00:08:02

Everything or most things. There are definitely

Matt Canzer: 00:08:05

some laws that are on the books that you're like, oh, this makes

Matt Canzer: 00:08:09

sense anymore. I don't know that there's a justification for it,

Matt Canzer: 00:08:12

but one of those weird quirks of our system. So

Jennifer Takagi: 00:08:15

what are your favorite type clients? Like? Who

Jennifer Takagi: 00:08:18

do you work with? I have a large audience in on my podcast that

Jennifer Takagi: 00:08:22

are Canadians, a lot of Canadians in my world? So like,

Jennifer Takagi: 00:08:25

what is your I mean, I get litigation, but is there a

Jennifer Takagi: 00:08:29

particular type of litigation that your, your baby in the

Jennifer Takagi: 00:08:33

thing we really like to hone in on?

Matt Canzer: 00:08:36

Yeah, I mean, I enjoy and I'm happy to work with

Matt Canzer: 00:08:38

pretty much anyone who's representing themselves. But I

Matt Canzer: 00:08:42

found that the clients that find the most value for my type of

Matt Canzer: 00:08:44

service, they're small business owners, Oh, right. Small

Matt Canzer: 00:08:48

business owners, they often don't have, you know, budgets

Matt Canzer: 00:08:51

for a legal department, they may not have the cash flow to put

Matt Canzer: 00:08:55

down a, you know, a legal retainer. And so, you know,

Matt Canzer: 00:08:58

either the business owner or a partner or maybe a senior

Matt Canzer: 00:09:03

employee, they can represent the company in small claims court.

Matt Canzer: 00:09:07

And those are the types of clients that that usually find

Matt Canzer: 00:09:09

the most value from from my type of service.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:13

Oh, my gosh, I love that. So your three tips

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:15

were number one, make sure you have the emotional capacity. And

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:19

I just want to expand on that just a little bit. Like

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:22

sometimes the question is, is it more important to be right? Or

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:28

save the relationship? And I think sometimes we emotionally

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:31

get caught up in what's going on. And you know, I'm right. And

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:35

I know I'm right, but at what cost? So having that emotional

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:39

capacity and that fortitude to stick with it, because

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:43

litigation is not a short, quick thing, typically. And then a

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:47

support network. If you're going after something that nobody

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:51

believes you can win or should win or should go after. You're

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:55

not going to have that support. So I think it would be critical

Jennifer Takagi: 00:09:59

to make sure that have, you know your, your closest people in

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:03

your circle, understand what's going on and why it's so

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:06

important, right? So they can be there for you for that long

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:09

haul, because it's not going to be fast and organized. Like, I

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:13

am just the queen of having stacks of papers. And even in my

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:19

long term career in corporate and federal government, I did.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:24

But if I called in sick for some reason, and somebody needed

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:27

something on my guests, I can pretty much tell you where it

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:30

was. But not everybody has that superpower, it is a superpower

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:35

of mine. But not everybody has that. And that's just a big

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:38

problem, because you've got to have every receipt, every email,

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:41

every everything. So those are three, just in general life

Jennifer Takagi: 00:10:47

three great suggestions and tips to live by.

Matt Canzer: 00:10:52

What makes it interesting and and, you know,

Matt Canzer: 00:10:55

part of the value that I offer in in litigation coaching, is

Matt Canzer: 00:10:58

that those you know, the first one the emotional capacity,

Matt Canzer: 00:11:01

right, this is it's going to be stressful. And it's not just the

Matt Canzer: 00:11:04

you know, it's not just the the emotion of having a lot of extra

Matt Canzer: 00:11:08

work to do. It's that feeling of injustice that everybody feels

Matt Canzer: 00:11:11

when they have a court case, right? It's a feeling that

Matt Canzer: 00:11:13

something was done wrong to them. And that makes them see,

Matt Canzer: 00:11:16

maybe not red, but like a shade of red, right, it gets gets the

Matt Canzer: 00:11:20

blood going. And that is why we need the support network, right,

Matt Canzer: 00:11:23

because the support network, even if you're not talking about

Matt Canzer: 00:11:26

the details of the case, you just need someone that you can,

Matt Canzer: 00:11:29

you know, maybe have a cry with how to vent with someone who's

Matt Canzer: 00:11:32

going to give you a hug someone who's going to, you know, maybe

Matt Canzer: 00:11:34

make you breakfast on the days that it's time to go to court,

Matt Canzer: 00:11:37

someone's going to take you for a beer after court if that's you

Matt Canzer: 00:11:39

know, if that's what you need. And only when those first two

Matt Canzer: 00:11:43

pleat pieces are kind of taken care of, we understand the

Matt Canzer: 00:11:45

emotional impact. We have people around us that are supporting

Matt Canzer: 00:11:48

us. That's what lets us get organize. Right, because what I

Matt Canzer: 00:11:52

found a lot of clients think that they're going to do is

Matt Canzer: 00:11:55

they're gonna say, Great, two hours on a Sunday, and then I'll

Matt Canzer: 00:11:57

be organized. And that's not usually how it goes, right? We

Matt Canzer: 00:12:01

need to have a system, we need to develop strategies and

Matt Canzer: 00:12:06

workflows to kind of organize what we need for our case, as we

Matt Canzer: 00:12:09

build the case over the period of usually a couple of months.

Matt Canzer: 00:12:13

From beginning to end. Average, I would say about two years

Matt Canzer: 00:12:16

until you get to resolution. Yes,

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:19

that's awesome. So if my audience wants to get

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:21

ahold of you, how are they going to find you that?

Matt Canzer: 00:12:24

Easy peasy it's butterfly legal.ca.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:28

Better fly legal.ca. I will have all the

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:34

contact information in the show notes. Now. It was so great to

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:38

visit with you today.

Matt Canzer: 00:12:39

Oh, thanks so much. It was great chatting with you.

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:42

Thank you. I'm Jennifer Takagi with destined

Jennifer Takagi: 00:12:44

for success. I look forward to connecting with you soon.